Satan seemed surprised that (S?)he has a "very well-developed sense of right and wrong". That struck a chord in me. Of anyone, Satan has intimate knowledge of the difference of right and wrong. Satan was God's favorite. His Morning Star. Satan had seen the wonders of God first hand. Unfortunately, Satan chose to be on the side of wrong. He hoped to dethrone God and take over. God gave him this world as his punishment.
Humans are always striving to do right. The problem is that humans are almost god-like. They can change the definition of right to whatever is right for them. This is the stumbling block of atheists. Since an atheist does not believe in a higher, benevolent deity, he/she can never truly know what is right (or good). He/she can only define it in terms that relate to him/herself. When man tries to define what is right/good in without knowledge of God, he will always fail. When man tries to make up what is right for him, we get war, the holocaust, income taxes, etc. Each of these examples were couched in terms that defined good without using God. Look where they have gotten us.
I do not believe there are any true atheists. A Satanist still believes in God. He just chooses not to worship him. Many may be agnostic. It seems to me that an agnostic is one that is afraid of the answers he/she will find in trying to find out, if there is a God or not. If there is truly a God, then everything he built his life on may be a farce. If there is not a God, then what is the purpose of life?
So when Satan made is post, at first blush it seemed surprising that Satan would have a "very well-developed sense of right and wrong". In reality, Satan would be have a very keen sense of right and wrong. He just always chooses to defy God and do wrong.
The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven. The Great Divorce. C.S. Lewis
11 comments:
No. You may have a well-developed sense of what is right and wrong...as you define it. Without a "higher power" how can you define true right and wrong? Without that basis right and wrong become relative.
I'm pretty sure Satan is female. Heh heh, that sounds funny.
Well, we all worship something. A God, money, jobs, family, ourselves. You are right. People with no "absolute" belief system can have good philosophies about right and wrong going along with the "betterment of society," or one of many other philosophies. Some might just obey their country's laws, some might just treat others as they would want to be treated. But all of these things can change. If you believe in an unchanging God, it makes for moral absolutes rather than moral relativism.
Sadly, most of society is pretty happy with moral relativism. The mantra is that "everything is relative."
The pitfall for many is confusing church doctrines with believing in God. Although the Christian church is the body of Christ, it is run by humans. Right there is the problem. Anything run by man is open for corruption.
Belief in God does not, necessarily, make me a better person. The more I study God's Word; the more I realize what a wretch I am. There is no way I can be a 100% good person. The only way is through Grace. A true beleiver should never hold himself above nonbelievers. The problem with much of organized religion is MAN's doing not God's (he is perfect).
At one time I struggled with God. How could He let these terrible things happen? What scientific proof is there? I mean look at what religion has done (doing) in the name of God. If that is God, I want no part of it.
The thing that change my beliefs was biochemistry. After studying the intrcacies of life itself, I knew there is no way "it jest growed." The other answers came from study the scriptures. The horrible things done in the name of God was done by Man's will not God's.
If I insulted you, that was not my intention. I truly believe right and wrong MUST be decided by a higher power. In my case I choose to believe in God. As FTN said, many worship something/someone. I think choosing to worship a benovolent diety (i.e. God) is better than anything else.
So you're saying that since my parents taught me right from wrong (and God was never brought up), then they're in essence my god(s)?
Have any of you read God's Debris by Scott Adams? I don't believe the theory it presents, but it's very interesting! A bit controversial, too, from what I hear. The author states up front that people with solid faiths will have a hard time reading it. I'd take that as a challenge and pick it up! ;)
Who taught your parents? I don't mean it sarcastically.
Christians, generally, see the world in black and white terms (good or evil). This may be offensive to some, but that is why some have "plastic" morals. Are Christians better (more righteous) than others? No. A true Christian stays humble, he/she knows how much their humanity separates them from God. Anyone reading the Bible sees Paul constantly saying what a sinner he is, yet he is the one who fleshed out Christian theology.
I never read God's Debris. Next time I'm at the bookstore, I'll peruse it. If I'm interested, then I may buy it. I might offer Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. He lays out the arguements against aeithism. He was one.
Going Amazon.com, I see that any religous sort should not read this book. He/she may lose their religion. Interesting. I seriously doubt a truly faithful person will lose his religion simply from a book. Like I said, next time at the bookstore I'll read it. After grappling with creation vs. evolution, etc., I don't think this book will change my mind.
I doubt the book will change your mind either, but I found it an interesting read.
I'm sure I have a long line of Christians in my background, but I don't see how that has to do with me. While a lot of their moral beliefs (which were probably Christian based) were most likely passed down to me, it doesn't make me a Christian. It's not like being 50% Italian and 50% French. It's an idea. Make sense?
I found a free copy online in PDF format. I read a couple of chapters. It put forth interesting arguements. However, the arguements are nothing new. Christianity has been around for 2000 years, Judaism for ~3000 years (?), and Islam for ~1600 years. In that time all of these arguements have been put forth. It really comes down to faith. A Skeptic has faith in his/her skepticism. In a way that is a religion. It is true that my faith tells me that there is an ultimate judge of right and wrong, good and bad.
An atheist may say they believe themselves to be good, yet were does that definition of good come from? See, it must come from somewhere. Saying it came down from one's environment, upbringing, laws, etc. does not truly answer the question. THAT good had to come from someplace. Debating rather or not God exists eventually comes down to God existing. A better debate might be rather or not Jesus was truly the son of God. If nothing else, the study of life gives insight into a Creator (ie. God).
OK. I consider myself agnostic. Not for fear of what I may find in my search for answers or for god. Not for any lack of spirituality. I search constantly for answers. I simply don't have the hubris to assume that I know the answers. I don’t blindly follow. I think for myself thank you very much.
Attending Church does not equal "good". More humans in the history of humanity have been killed because of religion. Hello. Inquisition? Crusades? Also, your assumption that one can't define right and wrong without knowledge of god is just absurd at best. I have a strong sense of right and wrong developed from many influences (including the bible) is it everyone else’s definition of right and wrong. NO. And that is the beauty of it. Problem with ALL religions IMHO is that they only believe what they are doing is right and EVERYONE else is wrong. And that is just arrogance and ignorance.
I do see many examples of people defining good by relating it to what is good for them, and MOST them are "Christians". My father in law is this way now. He was an abusive, asshole, drunk for about 20 years, but now is just holier than holy, he considers himself to be a “true Christian”. In reality he is just a fucking fruitcake, and still an asshole.
Oh yea, the purpose of life is to procreate successful offspring and evolve…
Thanks for your posting.
To find the answers you are seeking, you need to search and study the Bible. Like it's been said, churches are run by humans, and humans are fallible and make mistakes. Some people lost faith in God because of the church's refusal to deal with the priests who abused children. They are getting the Catholic church and God mixed up. God stays the same, and His word stays the same. If you are in doubt about what your church is teaching, study the Bible for answers. If you can't find them, ask your pastor to point them out to you.
God never changes. God gave us free will. The people who complain about God when people die horribly lose sight of the fact that this God also allows the miracle of birth and all the good and beautiful things that happen to us. How come humans blame God but then don't give him credit?
Anon-
I search constantly for answers. I simply don't have the hubris to assume that I know the answers. I don’t blindly follow. I think for myself thank you very much.
I'm glad you think for yourself. I encourage you to think for yourself. I'll admit Faith has to be involved to believe in God. However, I arrived at Faith through logical reasoning.
Attending Church does not equal "good". More humans in the history of humanity have been killed because of religion. Hello. Inquisition? Crusades? No where have I said attending Church equals Good. If I did, I'd like a link. What are your numbers about religion causing death? I seriously doubt that more people have been killed from religion that anything else. Without numeric proof, that is an absurd statement. How many died as a result of the Crusades, Inquisition (which really didn't kill as many as people think)? How many died in WW2 alone? This always occurs when the church becomes politicized. The Crusades had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. One can make the case that organized religion is a problem. It is easy for people to get caught up and fail to realize God's teachings. Agnositcs/atheists always use the Crusades/Inquisition as an example of how religion is BAD. I have no doubt that religion as a political force can be bad. However, the US was founded by men that ranged from believers to devout faithful in Christianity. That would be a good example of religion being done in a good way.
I do see many examples of people defining good by relating it to what is good for them, and MOST them are "Christians". My father in law is this way now. He was an abusive, asshole, drunk for about 20 years, but now is just holier than holy, he considers himself to be a “true Christian”. In reality he is just a fucking fruitcake, and still an asshole.
I'm sorry about your father-in-law. I agree that some "Christians" tend to be self-righteous. In my opinion, a true Christian is the total opposite of him. A Christian is the first to realize that people are flawed, hopelessly. Thinking we are better than anyone else is wrong. We are all sinners. Christians realize that there is NOTHING we can do to save ourselves. Jesus is the only answer. Although I call myself a Christian, I'll be the first to say that I am a hopelessly flawed individual. So are you. We all are. The closer I try to get to God; the more I realize my flaws.
If I somehow upset you, then I apologize. My post was about the knowledge of Good and Evil. I'm not saying one is a bad person. I'm simply asking where did Good come from, ulitmately? Good started with God. There is no other way. If Man defines what is good, it becomes relative instead of an absolute.
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