Last night Sybil came home from Bonko with an interesting observation: the other women were amazed that she wins all of the arguments. The running joke I have is that, when I said "I do," my balls were locked up with Sybil having the key.
That indicates to me that much of what Sybil is I've allowed to be created. By not standing up for myself, I allowed her to fill that void. The problem lies in our different personalities. In an old post I mentioned that Sybil has a "scorched earth" style of arguing. She is VERY persistent and stubborn. Once she stakes out her position, it is a monumental task to change that position. Unfortunately, I tend to try to be a consensus builder. I want everyone to be happy. I want both sides to be heard and to meet somewhere in the middle. Mix in an aversion to confrontation and that adds up to a monster that, although I didn't create, I allowed to roam free.
I need to improve my debating style. I need to stake out my position and, rationally, defend it. It stems from a form of laziness. When these arguments come about, it's usually at the end of the day, and I'm tired (Sybil operates on ~9 hours of sleep. I get ~6).
Honestly, if it weren't for the kids and my fear of poverty, I would have left already. I hate thinking that, much less typing that. I was brought up to believe that married people stay married, no matter how painful it is. Also, this goes against my Judeo-Christian beliefs. Probably the kids and the fact that divorce courts are stacked against men hold more power over me.
To be continued...
The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven. The Great Divorce. C.S. Lewis
12 comments:
>>Probably the kids and the fact that divorce courts are stacked against men hold more power over me.<<
This seems to be a recurring theme amongst my favorite male bloggers, and that saddens me. I just really wish you guys could go out and be happy in life, and probably find someone to make you so much happier than your current partners. I just keep thinking about your (general your) kids and what their life is going to be like growing up.
Honestly, if it weren't for the kids and my fear of poverty, I would have left already. I hate thinking that, much less typing that. I was brought up to believe that married people stay married, no matter how painful it is. Also, this goes against my Judeo-Christian beliefs. Probably the kids and the fact that divorce courts are stacked against men hold more power over me.
Bullseye! My life exactly, except for the courts stacked against men part (since I'm a woman at least I've got that part on my side).
No wisdom, just understanding and empathy here.
Been trying to figure out something to say other than sorry but that is all I can offer. Seems there can be no 'winners' in this case.
Can you get those arguments in earlier in the day?
I'd say the first big step is definitely to, as you said, improve your debating style. Skip the avoidance and hit things head-on. That might make for some worse arguments at first, but that might also make for a good time to insist (insist!) upon some counseling.
My husband does not argue with me, and I therefore "win" every argument. I do not want to win every argument. I know I don't actually "win" them all, but I do on the surface, and I hate that. My husband is a lot like you; sometimes it's just easier to shut up and agree, or at least just let it go. In the long run, it makes me feel entitled, domineering, and and superior. And I'm none of those things.
True, you have to choose your battles, but you have to show up for the ones you pick.
all-
Thanks for your comments. The source of my problems is me. The emotions that run during the these arguments make me want to withdraw (something Sybil hates). Yet, I find myself doing it time and time again.I have to make major changes in myself first. No easy task.
a book 2amsomewhere suggested to me that I am currently reading is an excellent source for this topic, it is called "No More Mr. Nice Guy." And despite the title, it is not about "learning to be a jerk" it is learning about how to stand up for yourself properly and why you tend to cower away.
My wife is almost the exact opposite... she rolls over and engages in this dramatic self-flagellation to show me how sorry she is, but it's just to end the argument. The issues that caused the argument are still there and still eroding our relationship and they never seem to get adressed. I'm not afraid of living in poverty, but I am afraid of not being able to provide for my son or guide him to adulthood.
Aphron - stop wasting you life, or what's left of it.
Speaking from experience, I know it's hard, but honestly even if you are a little poorer in the end, it's so worth it not to hate being where you are.
Do you honestly think that your kids don't know that their parents don't love each other? Aren't happy together? They see it even though you pretend differently.
Children pattern their future partners on their parents. Is that what you want to teach your kids? That fighting, or the silent anger is 'normal' in a loving relationship?
I was married 13 years, I finally woke up one day and said I've wasted 10 years of my life with this man, I'm not going to waste 10 more.
I realized that I didn't want to wake up 10 more years down the line at 40 and still regret 10 more years wasted.
I won't lie. It's hard and it's painful but in the end I think it's better for both yourself and your children to end a relationship where you are both miserable.
You can still raise your kids and have a wonderful, loving relationship with them. How much better would your relationship with them be if you were happy and not miserable all the time?
It was hard, it was painful, but I am SO glad I left him. I now have a wonderful man, and he's a better father to my kids than their real father ever was, and I never would have met him if I had stayed with someone who made life miserable.
We are now going on 8 years together and have a daughter. And I am SO glad I took that scary first step. I now have someone who's a real partner, who loves me first and puts me first (as I do him).
A real PARTNER in life, not an adversary.
I don't say this lightly, but please stop wasting your life, you only have so long on this earth.
Be happy Aphron and your kids will be happy.
Ok first I have to say to Samanthaca... He never said they don't love each other. I think in fact he said quite plainly that he loves his wife. However when two people can't get along it makes for a miserable situation, for everyone.
Aphron, I think learning debate skills would be good. It seems Sybil has mastered her arguing style, but does she know how to debate? If not then it may be difficult to maintain a debate stance without being drawn into a full blown arguement.
But since I am a firm believer in the philosophy that you can't change other people, but you can change yourself, here are somethings you might try plugging into a search engine. Expository writing (I know you're wanting to verbally engage, but I find writing helps me stay on my game on that note.)
Also Lincoln-Douglas debate, arguementative techniques, and I have a link for you on the rules for fighting fair. Sybil may not follow them at first, but they can help you keep yourself in check and stand your ground during an arguement. I recommend printing it off and allowing her to read the article.
Mr. Muse also has a scorched earth style of arguing (though since he turned 30 he seems to be mellowing out a bit on that) and I over time adopted it because it was a matter of survival. Now he and I both are learning better communication techniques and we are much happier and secure for it.
Good luck, Aphron. I'm rooting for you and your marriage!
Square1, I never said he didn't love her. But frankly, it takes more than loving someone to have a HEALTHY marriage.
Most women who are married to physically abusive men, and most site that the reason they stay is because they 'love' him.
Aphron has to do what he feels is best, and since he spoke to the fact, that for the divorce laws he would already be gone.
I was speaking from experience of being in a similar position, so I understood where he seemed to be coming from.
As for him learning to debate with her instead of arguing, it seemed from what I read that they had a lot more problems than that, a big one being that Sybil does not encourage or foster a loving, INTIMATE relationship.
I wish you well Aphron
Your styles sound like me and my stb-ex...except reversed. I'm not quite a "scorched earth" type, but I take my time to form a position and really, really good convincing to change it.
Here's hoping you find happiness together...or at least good compromise that does not make you lose yourself.
I ended up filing for divorce from my stb-ex. And I'm happier than ever. I think my kids are, too. But I earn more than enough to support two households comfortably indefinitely. And I think we have way bigger problems than just differing styles/personalities. (IMHO, she has never let go of her parents as a married woman should...then was dumb enough to move 8 blocks from them. Oops.)
Best of luck.
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